Richard Oliver

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Posts by Richard Oliver

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  52

  Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

  by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

  the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

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  Richard Oliver

  Now the father could not argue clergy pertinent relationship though. He did not gather the information in his capacity as an elder but that of a father. Courts have ruled that the communication must meet certain requirements, of course each state differs based on their laws, but in general they have to meet these. First that the clergy member was acting in their official capacity as a spiritual leader or counselor. This means that you couldn't call up your friend Joe who is a minister and while discussing the game last night you blurt out that you just stole a car, that would not be protected. Second, is would a reasonable person expect that the conversation be kept confidential. Speaking in front of a group of other people would not qualify for the most part. Though as I pointed out there are exceptions to that, it depends on the nature of the conversation. Third, is the communication part of the principles and discipline of the established religion. Such as in the Catholic Church, there is some rituals when it comes to confessions verses other communications. So is the process well established within that faith.
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  52

  Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

  by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

  the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

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  Richard Oliver

  You did not read what the holdings were in State v Archilbeque. The court ruled that the clergy-penitent privilege was still in effect even though part of the conversation was in the presence of the wife. It is to describe that just because there is the presence of a third party does not mean that the person has waived their privilege.

  And in Jane Doe v Corporation of Presidents of Church of Jesus Christ and of Latter Day Saints the state supreme court ruled that even the investigation does not waive the privilege. Neither does the transmission of the facts of the accusation to a national headquarters.
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  52

  Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

  by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

  the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

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  Richard Oliver

  State v Martin

  http://courts.mrsc.org/supreme/137wn2d/137wn2d0774.htm

  MacFarland v West Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses Lorain, OH

  http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/9/2016/2016-Ohio-5462.pdf

  Pages 9-22

  Jane Doe V Latter Day Saints

  http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-court-of-appeals/1094072.html

  State v Archibeque

  https://casetext.com/case/state-v-archibeque-1

  People v Bragg

  http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20MICO%2020120509324/PEOPLE%20v.%20BRAGG

  My comments come from WestLaw which takes the judicial commentary notes on the cases.
• 
  52

  Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

  by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

  the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

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  Richard Oliver

  • McFarland v W Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses Loraine, Ohio
    

    Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Whitmore, J., held that:

    1 correspondence of a secular nature between local congregation and service department of society's national headquarters was not protected by clergy-penitent privilege;
    2 correspondence regarding spiritual guidance was protected by clergy-penitent privilege; and3 documents were not protected by attorney-client privilege.
    Communication to anyone that holds privilege is not automatically revoked if that communication is shared to a third party. That would negate confidentiality between a doctor and patient, if the doctor has to share that confidential information to the rest of the patient's care team. Them repeating what they spoke with the patient about does not release the privilege.Also, the number of people in a room does not release privilege. If a client has hired a law firm to handle a case, depending on the complexity of the situation there maybe a number of lawyers and staff in a room to discuss the matter. Just because there maybe 5 people in the room, all 5 people in that room still has to be bound by the confidential nature of the discussion.
    Some will also say that the nature of the Judicial Committee also voids the confidential nature of the communication. Where yes that is true in some states such as Deleware, in Deleware v Laurel Congregation, the court ruled that because the elders said that the conversation was "seeking spiritual advice and counsel from us as elders in a private setting." The court ruled that this is not this conversation was not intended to be a repentant communication in a communication of sacrament. The court ruled that because the legislature did not spell out specifically what is considered a confession, they were to make the determination based on the standard reading of Black's Law Dictionary.
    But not all states view it this way. Many states in their clergy-penitent privilege include the term discipline in their statute. Washington State is one example. their priest-peninent privilege reads as:A member of the clergy or a priest shall not, without the consent of a person making the confession, be examined as to any confession made to him or her in his or her professional *785 character, in the course of discipline enjoined by the church to which he or she belongs.And in State v Martin the Washington State Supreme Court ruled:(1) requirement for applicability of statutory clergy member privilege that confession be received “in the course of discipline enjoined by the church to which he or she belongs” refers to clergy member, rather than penitent; (2) what constitutes a “confession” for purposes of statute is determined by church in question, rather than court, with term broadly construed; and (3) communications in question were protected by privilege.
    Flag Lin
• 
  52

  Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

  by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

  the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

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  Richard Oliver

  Richard Oliver5 hours ago

  Jane Doe v Corporation of Presidents of Church of Jesus Christ and of Latter Day Saints:

  Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Schindler, J., held that:

  1 participants in disciplinary proceeding were ordained clergy, and thus clergy-penitent privilege protected report from disclosure, and2 neither father's agreement to allow previous confession to be used in church disciplinary proceeding, nor confidential recording and transmission of report to church authorities effected waiver of father's right to assert privilege.Facts of the case in part:John Roe's disciplinary council was held on Sunday January 10, 1999. Roe attended and apparently confessed in the course of the proceeding. The disciplinary council decided the appropriate discipline for Roe was disfellowshipment. LDS Church procedures require that an RCDA be prepared and sent to the Church headquarters in Utah when the discipline is disfellowshipment or excommunication. An RCDA is a summary of the disciplinary proceedings and describes the decision of the council. The LDS Church did not report Jane Doe's allegations that her stepfather sexually abused her to the civil authorities.
  State v Archilbeque:Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Gemmill, J., held that:1 defendant's alleged confession was protected by the clergy-penitent privilege unless the privilege was waived;2 defendant did not waive the clergy-penitent privilege by having his wife present during the alleged confession;3 defendant did not impliedly waive the clergy-penitent privilege; and4 defendant's statements to his wife in advance of allegedly confessing to the bishop did not constitute a waiver of the clergy-penitent privilege.
  People v Bragg:
  Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Gleicher, P.J., held that:1 cleric-congregant privilege is not limited to “confessions”;2 defendant's statements to his Baptist pastor, admitting to having sexually assaulted his minor cousin, fell within scope of cleric-congregant privilege;3 privilege applied regardless of whether cleric or congregant initiated the conversation; and4 presence of defendant's mother at time of defendant's communication did not waive privilege.
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  90

  Day 5 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Ends: Plaintiff settles in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day 5 in court - and apparently the plaintiff stephanie fessler has decided to settle..... http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/jehovahs_witness_sexual_abuse.html.

  jehovah's witness sexual-abuse-coverup lawsuit settled.

  february 13, 2017 at 2:37 pm, updated february 13, 2017 at 2:44 pm.

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  Richard Oliver

  Jane Doe v Corporation of Presidents of Church of Jesus Christ and of Latter Day Saints:

  Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Schindler, J., held that:

  1 participants in disciplinary proceeding were ordained clergy, and thus clergy-penitent privilege protected report from disclosure, and

  2 neither father's agreement to allow previous confession to be used in church disciplinary proceeding, nor confidential recording and transmission of report to church authorities effected waiver of father's right to assert privilege.

  Facts of the case in part:

  John Roe's disciplinary council was held on Sunday January 10, 1999. Roe attended and apparently confessed in the course of the proceeding. The disciplinary council decided the appropriate discipline for Roe was disfellowshipment. LDS Church procedures require that an RCDA be prepared and sent to the Church headquarters in Utah when the discipline is disfellowshipment or excommunication. An RCDA is a summary of the disciplinary proceedings and describes the decision of the council. The LDS Church did not report Jane Doe's allegations that her stepfather sexually abused her to the civil authorities.

  
  

  State v Archilbeque:

  Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Gemmill, J., held that:

  1 defendant's alleged confession was protected by the clergy-penitent privilege unless the privilege was waived;

  2 defendant did not waive the clergy-penitent privilege by having his wife present during the alleged confession;

  3 defendant did not impliedly waive the clergy-penitent privilege; and

  4 defendant's statements to his wife in advance of allegedly confessing to the bishop did not constitute a waiver of the clergy-penitent privilege.

  
  

  People v Bragg:

  
  

  Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Gleicher, P.J., held that:

  1 cleric-congregant privilege is not limited to “confessions”;

  2 defendant's statements to his Baptist pastor, admitting to having sexually assaulted his minor cousin, fell within scope of cleric-congregant privilege;

  3 privilege applied regardless of whether cleric or congregant initiated the conversation; and

  4 presence of defendant's mother at time of defendant's communication did not waive privilege.

  
  

  
  
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  90

  Day 5 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Ends: Plaintiff settles in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day 5 in court - and apparently the plaintiff stephanie fessler has decided to settle..... http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/jehovahs_witness_sexual_abuse.html.

  jehovah's witness sexual-abuse-coverup lawsuit settled.

  february 13, 2017 at 2:37 pm, updated february 13, 2017 at 2:44 pm.

  1. 
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  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  McFarland v W Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses Loraine, Ohio
  

  Holdings: The Court of Appeals, Whitmore, J., held that:

  1 correspondence of a secular nature between local congregation and service department of society's national headquarters was not protected by clergy-penitent privilege;

  2 correspondence regarding spiritual guidance was protected by clergy-penitent privilege; and

  3 documents were not protected by attorney-client privilege.

  
  

  Communication to anyone that holds privilege is not automatically revoked if that communication is shared to a third party. That would negate confidentiality between a doctor and patient, if the doctor has to share that confidential information to the rest of the patient's care team. Them repeating what they spoke with the patient about does not release the privilege.

  Also, the number of people in a room does not release privilege. If a client has hired a law firm to handle a case, depending on the complexity of the situation there maybe a number of lawyers and staff in a room to discuss the matter. Just because there maybe 5 people in the room, all 5 people in that room still has to be bound by the confidential nature of the discussion.

  
  

  Some will also say that the nature of the Judicial Committee also voids the confidential nature of the communication. Where yes that is true in some states such as Deleware, in Deleware v Laurel Congregation, the court ruled that because the elders said that the conversation was "seeking spiritual advice and counsel from us as elders in a private setting." The court ruled that this is not this conversation was not intended to be a repentant communication in a communication of sacrament. The court ruled that because the legislature did not spell out specifically what is considered a confession, they were to make the determination based on the standard reading of Black's Law Dictionary.

  
  

  But not all states view it this way. Many states in their clergy-penitent privilege include the term discipline in their statute. Washington State is one example. their priest-peninent privilege reads as:

  A member of the clergy or a priest shall not, without the consent of a person making the confession, be examined as to any confession made to him or her in his or her professional *785 character, in the course of discipline enjoined by the church to which he or she belongs.

  And in State v Martin the Washington State Supreme Court ruled:

  (1) requirement for applicability of statutory clergy member privilege that confession be received “in the course of discipline enjoined by the church to which he or she belongs” refers to clergy member, rather than penitent; (2) what constitutes a “confession” for purposes of statute is determined by church in question, rather than court, with term broadly construed; and (3) communications in question were protected by privilege.
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  17

  The fact that different states have different laws about child sexual abuse is ludicrous it should be looked at pronto.

  by smiddy in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  it would go a long way in having a law that prosecutes anybody sexually abusing a child or even an adult that encompasses all states with the same laws the same consequences and the same penalties in the country.. this system that has different laws ,different penaltys , different outcomes depending in what state you live in is ludicrous.. one country should have the same judicial system no matter how many states their are in that country.. this state has mandatory laws this state doesnt and the outcome can be so demoralising for those involved ..

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  Richard Oliver

  Congress did not change the law on those two instances. The courts were the ones that changed things. They ruled that the laws were unconstitutional and could not be enforced. So it was not making a new law, but the courts revoked the laws.
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  17

  The fact that different states have different laws about child sexual abuse is ludicrous it should be looked at pronto.

  by smiddy in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  it would go a long way in having a law that prosecutes anybody sexually abusing a child or even an adult that encompasses all states with the same laws the same consequences and the same penalties in the country.. this system that has different laws ,different penaltys , different outcomes depending in what state you live in is ludicrous.. one country should have the same judicial system no matter how many states their are in that country.. this state has mandatory laws this state doesnt and the outcome can be so demoralising for those involved ..

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  Richard Oliver

  Fisherman is right. Each state has independence from the federal government. Also there are laws in each state that would make it difficult to even make a federal law if Congress wants to. Age of consent in some states is 16, the age to marry in some states is lower than others. You would also have to remember Congress would have to allow for more money for federal prosecutors to go to court to prosecute those cases along with federal law enforcement to investigate. The way they could do that is by the use of the purse strings. If Congress can identify a federal funding program that they can use to force state legislatures to view it in the same way. They did that with the drinking age. Each state can identify at what age people in that state can drink at, but Congress said they won't give the state highway money unless it is set to atleast 21.
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  90

  Day 5 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Ends: Plaintiff settles in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day 5 in court - and apparently the plaintiff stephanie fessler has decided to settle..... http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/jehovahs_witness_sexual_abuse.html.

  jehovah's witness sexual-abuse-coverup lawsuit settled.

  february 13, 2017 at 2:37 pm, updated february 13, 2017 at 2:44 pm.

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  Richard Oliver

  I used the examples of adultery and fornication because Orphan Crow made the assertion that Watchtower can and does monitor their members all the time, but chooses not to act when it comes to pedophilia. I was using those as examples to show that people can and do what they want. There are consequences for those actions but no one can stop someone else from doing anything that they want in their personal time, away from official activities sponsored by Watchtower or the Congregation. Just like your employer can't be held responsible for your actions when you aren't at work, that is your time, you can do what you want. If you go out Drinking and Driving and hit someone while you were on your personal time, your employer is not responsible, they may fire you because you showed bad judgement, but they aren't responsible for your actions, you are.